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Celtic Mythology
Dan Hyman offers this allusion to Celtic Mythology and it's relation to
some of the key figures in Myth.
"bungie did, most defiantely, base myth on celtic myths. First,
there is the zerker, which is obviously celtic. Then, there is
the "Fir'Bolg" they are celtic spirits, enemies/friends of humanity,
i believe (sound familiar?)
balor was the name of a very evil guy in celtic myth. He had a
huge head, and the gaze of his eye meant death. He was killed
in various ways, depending on the myth. He had a stone thrown
past him, and killed his own army, or a hero drove a spear through
his eye, whatever.
...the celts were very into cutting off peoples heads :)"
The version of this Myth that I have heard holds that the Fir Bolg were a race of
giants, and Balor was their king. Also interesting to note is the mythical Balor
was killed by his son Luh of the Long Arm, which is a Berserk name in Myth; and
most players will use Berserks to finish Balor off on The Last Battle.
Hinduism
There are a number of interesting parallels between Myth and Hindu mythology.
The parallels begin with the definition of an avatar which is:
"The incarnation of a Hindu deity, especially Vishnu, in human
or animal form."
And Vishnu is described as:
"One of the principal Hindu deities, worshiped as the protector
and preserver of worlds. Vishnu is often conceived as a member
of the triad including also Brahma and Shiva."
Not much interesting yet, though the legendary Heroes could be seen as
avatars of Myth's Vishnu-equivilant, some sort of preserver spirit. In face the Avatara are
described as archmages seeking to rebuild the One Dream and become avatara of Wyrd. On the other side of the coin:
"Shiva: One of the principal Hindu deities, worshiped as the destroyer
and restorer of worlds and in numerous other complementary forms.
Shiva is often conceived as a member of the triad also including
Brahma and Vishnu."
Clearly a parallel to The Leveller, who is "seeking not to conquer but to Destroy".
We may assume these parallels to be factual based on this evidence. There is also more on
Avatara:
"Avatar, in Hinduism, descent of a god into the world of human
beings for the duration of a human life span. Avatar differs from
the Christian concept of incarnation in two significant ways:
A Hindu god can become incarnate in many places at the same time
through "partial" avatars (amshas), and the avatars neither fully
participate in human suffering nor lose their divine knowledge
and power."
So perhaps all Great Heros are incarnations of Wyrd/Vishnu.
Then there is Brahma, the third in the triad.
"Brahma: 1. Hinduism. a. The creator god, conceived chiefly as
a member of the triad including also Vishnu and Shiva.
Brahman: 1. Also Brahma (-me) Hinduism. a. A religious formula
or prayer and the holy or sacred power in it and in the officiating
priest. b. The holy or sacred power that is the source and sustainer
of the universe. c. The single absolute being pervading the universe
and found within the individual; atman."
Brahma would seem to correlate to Wyrd as well, who created the world.
Perhaps Great Heroes are not avatars of Wyrd but instead of some third Savior spirit, opposite
to The Leveller.
"hinduism: Incorporated in this rich literature is a complex cosmology.
Hindus believe that time is both degenerative and cyclic, with
the world progressing through periods of decreasing goodness until
it is destroyed and born again. Human life, too, is cyclic: After
death, the soul leaves the body and is reborn in another body.
This condition of endless entanglement in activity and rebirth
is called samsara (see Transmigration). The circumstances of the
new birth are determined by karma, the accumulated merit and demerit
of past actions. Hindus believe that karma can be counteracted
by atonement and rituals, by "working out" through punishment
or reward, and by achieving release (moksha) from samsara through
the renunciation of worldly desires."
There are lots of obvious parallels between Myth and Hinduism here.
Cycles, obviously. Reincarnation as well, with the ressurrected Thrall, continually returning
heroes and villains, the "reborn" Heron Guards, and of course then there's the Skrael:
“Every Skræl believes that he who dies in battle is reborn seven
times to revenge himself upon his destroyers, and that each of
these seven incarnations may itself give rise to seven more ...
”
Dan Hyman provides some useful information:
"ok, i think that you are wrong about the hinduism thing. I dont
know too much about it, i have been mistaken before. However,
i do know that there is no "fight" between any of the hindu gods.
They are a balance. Eastern philosophy
is quite into balance, ya know that whole ying/yang thing?"
Perhaps, but it is important to note that conflict can maintain balance. Shiva / the Leveller's destruction
would certainly seem to be in conflict with the forces of the living, who Vishnu / the Savior would of course like to preverve; but
their conflict keeps the world in balance between the two extremes.
Chris Stelnick believes Shiva is actually an allusion to Shiver.
"...I believe Shiva is more like the Fallen Lord Shiver for several
reasons.
A) Shiva is a female, as Shiver is
B) Shiva used strong magical powers as we have seen in very old
RPGs as Shiver uses her Dream spells to fight and ultimately loses
with the spells
C)Shiver and Shiva...a very similar spelling
D) Balor uses Lightning as his main magic which would not match
up with Shiva's Ice spells from the RPGs"
Several Final Fantasy nintendo and playstation games come to mind
here. Shiva was an Esper in FF3 I believe and could summon ice
magic.
Mark Diller offers this tantalizing information.
"I'm not a specialist in Hinduism, but I have studied the history
of religions, and I'm working on an encyclopedia of religions
right now, so I probably know as much about Hinduism as the boys
at Bungie do (which is, of course, the corrective to all this
speculation: they may be drawing on Hinduism for their story,
but they won't let theological accuracy get in the way of a rippin'
good yarn). So here's my quick impressions:
1 - the earlier response was correct -- there's no battle between
Shiva and Vishnu or Brahma. Shiva, remember, is both the destroyer
and the creator; the Hindu system envisions a cyclical pattern
of time, so creation and destruction are part of the natural order
of things. This, I think, actually fits better with what we know
of Balor -- he is both hero and adversary. We'll probably have
to wait for Myth II to guess where Bungie wants to take this aspect
of the story.
2 - An avatar is, indeed, an incarnation of a deity. Some Hindus,
by the way, think of Jesus as an avatar of God, while there's
a debate within the Vaishnavite Hindu community over whether Krishna
is an avatar of Vishnu or whether all the gods are avatars of
Krishna (sort of a theological version of the chicken-or-the-egg
debate). Hindu mythology speaks of Vishnu sending various avatars
down to meet certain needs. Often, this is to fight against demons.
3 - It is really the demons who are the adversaries of the gods
in Hindu mythology. Demons in this system are nearly at the level
of the gods, sort of like the Giants in Germanic mythology or
the Titans of Greek mythology.
4 - If they're following the Hindu system of rebirth in figuring
the character of Soulblighter, then they would have to figure
in karma --the collective weight of one's past deeds which determine
the position into which one is born. At this point, I don't see
anything to indicate that karma plays a role in the Myth-ology."
Great information. Myth seems have been heavily inspired by Hindu mythology.
Liam Doughty writes:
"Today I discovered something very interesting about Hinduism.
There are *9* major gods. Coincidence? Also there was mention
of a balance of Hinduism. In the manual, a Journeyman is telling
us about how the world is like a flipping coin with light and
dark ruling in turn. A balanceI think so.
Also, remember back to Marathon 2 and Thoth. Thoth was a computer
created to alternate the cycle between war and peace. Much like
a world ruled in turn by dead and living."
Ah-ha. I forgot about our buddy Thoth who sided with the underdog
trying to keep the balance. Great stuff.
Ramses II sends us some great info on Hinuism's connections to Myth.
"I like to think of Hinduism as the way a scientist would build
the universe if it were just some vast experiment. Shiva creates
the experiment, Vishnu works to keep it stable, and Brahma is
the control factor within the experiment. Once the experiment
has served it's purpose Vishnu steps aside allowing instability
and entropy to begin taking affect, then Shiva clears the data
so another experiment can be run.
Hmmm, some basic ideas about Hinduism in Myth:
Shiva is both the creator and the destroyer, he could be looked
at as the guy who moderates the experiment (The Exp. being existence
in this case). Balor as Shiva is an interesting idea, after all
the Fallen Lords come 'Seeking not to conquer, but to destroy.'
Balor as Connacht as Shiva is also workable, as Connacht created
a new world out of the destruction of the Moagim/Myrkridia and
founded Muirthemne, regarded as the greatest city in history.
This creative act is, in balance with the Shiva idea, negated
by his destructive act much later on. We are told that upon raising
Muirthemne to it's greatest height, and creating/collecting many
items of great power, Connacht vanishes for a time, allowing the
experiment to run on it's on perhaps. This ties in with how, once
the experiment is going Shiva's role ends and Vishnu's begins.
Ramses II adds:
Vishnu, as the anti-entropy force in Hinduism, could be represented
by any number of avatars, though I'm actually thinking Mazzarin
here. He was the most powerful of the avatara, and when the time
came he stepped aside (Or was killed and converted) to allow Shiva/Balor
to reset the experiment. Vishnu could have worked through many
different avatars through the centuries, likely even Alric in
the Southern Kingdoms. However, it should be noted that these
Hindu gods _never_ enter into direct conflict with one another,
they each have a role to play and stick to it. Once one part of
the role is done the next begins without a hitch, thus perhaps
Myth is an expansion on the western perversion of Hinduism into
good/evil reflections. In Hinduism none of these three is strictly
'evil' or 'good' they merely serve to maintain, and create/destroy,
the universe.
The concept of Brahma is quite difficult to convey in Western
ideas and words, indeed I doubt I have a full understanding of
the concept. You could consider Brahma to be omnipresence, that
is the everywhere at once idea... I just don't know how to say
it, some Hinduist believe that when one achieves perfection one
is elevated to become a part of Brahma again, as Shiva created
part of the universe (Or to be realistically true to Hinduist
ideas, Multiverse) out of it, so the universe returns to it. Who
could this be in Myth? The Narrator comes to mind, after all it
is suggested that he isn't really one guy, just a series of people
writing in similar styles about events as they occur, however
he doesn't have the omniprescent view point in his writing thus
perhaps (Though this isn't really very Hinduist) an avatar of
Brahma?
Then of course there is always the idea that the Fallen Lords
are some kind of demons. Really quite a bit simpler than the above
ideas, after all demons in Hinduism can take many forms, and are
vastly powerful. Soulblighter is a very demonish name too, but
then again 'The Leveler' works quite well for Shiva also."
J.R.R. Tolkien
Tolkien Fan's the world round have pointed out some allusions
in Myth to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.
Todd Proctor writes:
"Examples -Forest Giants, giant peaceful woodland beings that
live in the forest and are covered in bark. In lotr we see 'Ents',
beasts which match that description perfectly, and in Myths tag.gor
and Artsound.gor files, The files for forest giants are called
'Ent'.
Balor-Sauron. Balor used to mix in with the good( as conacht)
guys before becoming a real [jerk] and terrorizing the [w]hole
known world. Sauron used to be in league( or at least pretended)
with the old elven kings(gil-galad, elrond, celebrant all those
other guys that do not come to mind due to several years of not
reading the book) before he decided to be a real [jerk] and terrorise
the [w]hole known world.
The nine - The nine. Nine powerful sorcerers who lead the legion,
nine travellers chosen to dispose of the ruling ring.
The object of my rejection - In each story line, there is a small
object that needs to disapear in order for the ghood duys to win(the
ring/Balors head). And how do they get rid of them? throwing them
down a great big hole(The devoid/Mount oriduin(volcano)).
Ghols - They remind me alot of orcs, both races are war loving,
Dwarf hating, have taken away the Dwarfs ancestoral home(moria/myrgard).
Covenent/Osgiliath - They used to be the major centre of human
inhabitance in both story lines, now they are both sacked by the
dark."
A great start and parallels are clearly seen.
Thomas Seltzer writes about the names of the dwarves.
"Some of the dwarves' names are directly from Tolkien, further
evidence that The Lord of the Rings influenced Bungie. I recognize
Dori, Ori and Balin right off. There may be more, but I haven't
read the books in about fifteen years."
Also Balin was a great warrior in Norse Mythology.
John Miller unlocks the secrets of the name of the secret level.
"And finally, the title of the level 'A Long Awaited Party' was
taken from the Lord of the Rings series. In 'The Hobbit', the
first chapter was entitled "An Unexpected Party". The first chapter
in 'The Fellowship of the Ring', the first chapter is entitled
'A Long Expected Party', but I'm not entirely sure about the second,
for I can't find the book at the moment."
Tom Flanigan writes concerning ents and trow.
"This is really just a random fact, but it seems it might be significant
somehow. Trow, as has been said, turn into stone, like trolls
in Tolkein. Also in Tolkein trolls are really just twisted versions
of ents. Sauron (I think) took Ents (in myth, forest giants) and
twisted them into trolls. Thus there was a great and terrible
animosity between the two. Also, Ents couldn't really die, but
they could sort of "go sleepy", which basically means stop moving
and turn into trees (kinda). What happens when Forest Giants are
about to die? Why, they turn into trees."
Christopher Riker sees parallels to Cave Spiders and the Mirkwood Spiders in Lord
of the Rings.
"It dawns on me that the Spiders in Myth are very much like the
Mirkwood Spiders of the Hobbit and are referenced in The Lord
of the Rings (LOR) later during the chapter in which Frodo & Sam
are led past Shelob by Gollum. Shelob is an ancient evil from
the First Age of Middle Earth who is residing on the borders of
the evil kingdom. She is allowed to stay there as her malice makes
her a better guard than any others. She is very spider-like in
description and may qualify as a 'Spider Queen' reference of sorts.
Although Shelob is unique, her offspring have inhabited all parts
of Middle Earth - much like the Spider Queen's offspring become
the spider of Myth."
John Miller presents some similarities between Myth and Lord of the Rings.
"To start: From the third page of "The Return of the King," comes
this text, "'Yea truly, we know you, Mithrandir,' said the leader
of the men, 'and you know the pass-words of the Seven Gates and
are free to go forward...'" There is more to that, but that's
the important part. Seven Gates, hmm, where have I heard that
name before? Wights are also spoken of throughout the series (not
the explosive kind, much to my dismay) but I couldn't figure out
what they were supposed to look like. My guess is that they're
like the orcs. Chapter 4 in "The Return of the King" is called
"The Siege of Gondor," which is similar to "The Siege of Madrigal".
In this chapter, the city of Gondor was being attacked with various
weapons including catapults, and severed heads of solders of Gondor
were launched in with them. This reminded me of Balor's rain of
dwarf heads in The Last Battle. "
Wheel Of Time
There is series of novels called Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. A number
of readers have begun to point out parallels to the series.
Susan Timmer sparks the discussion with this tasty tidbit.
"It seems to be perfectly apparent that much of Myth has roots
in the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. The names are what
first clued me in. Rand, the main character in the books, is the
name of one of your warriors. Soulblighter is an alias for the
evil one in the books. A fetch in them is a warrior with no eyes
that is *pale skinned* and can strike fear into the heart of a
man. The other name for the fetch is Myrdrall. Myrdrall, myrmidon?
That seems less certain. The avataras and shade's dream is exactly
the same as Rand's most powerful spell. The ground begins to explode
beneath the enemy, destroying them all. Also, the evil sides most
powerful weapon, Balor's lightning strike, is the same as Sammael's
lightning strike at Rand in the WoT series."
Thanks Susan. What else is there?
"Alric" from the Asylum writes:
it's nothing much, but Bors (along with Rand) is also the name of one of the
warriors in Myth: The Fallen Lords. He was a prominent conspirator of the dark
in the series...
Niall is also a warrior name. in the Wheel of Time series Pedron Niall is the
commander of the whitecloaks or Children of the Light, a fanatical order (who
are armored much like Myth warriors) that are like a militant anti-dark
Inquisition.
Good find Alric. Thanks.
"Alric" continues in another post:
crows and ravens were the eyes of the Dark One, the supreme evil being in
Wheel of Time, much as crows are the embodiment and/or servants of
Soulblighter.
there are also some faint similarities between the Watcher and the WoT
character Ba'alzamon, the Betrayer of Hope. their appearances seem very
similar and The Watcher might be an apt description for Ba'alzamon as he was
always hounding and brooding over Rand Al'Thor, the young, good, and sorcerous
main character who is a reincarnation of a past hero of light, especially on
his journey west to Tar Valon. this reminds me of the Watcher and his many
traps for Alric (who may be a reincarnation of a past light hero as well)
along the Road North to Rhi'Anon and the final battle with the dark. Rand
al'thor fights a seemingly climatic battle with darkness at the end of his
journey as well and ultimately defeats Ba'alzamon.
Then, Lord Raven weighs in with these two posts:
I haven't read a Wheel of Time novel in quite some time, despite two more
being released since the last. I did notice that the eight (?) bad sorcerers
(It's been a looong time, can't even remember their names) were very similar
to the Fallen Lords. They all possess interesting personalities and have
grudges. Bah'lal's name is very similar to Bal'lazon's. I did notice a couple
of others, but I'll reread the books before posting them. Might want to back
them up with hard fact. :)
and:
Whoops, there are thirteen Forsaken. But there is one
called Ba'lal, very similar to Bah'laal...
The majority of them are past heroes of the previous
wheel. Kind of like the Myth world's cycle and those
who were 'turned from the light' such as Soulblighter,
the Deceiver and (insert last here).
The Aiel remind me of the fir'Bolg. Not quite human, with
different skills which set them apart, plus they never
really liked humanity.
The land to the north (where the Aiel live) was once
fertile and is now barren. Kinda like the Barrier.
Looks like there's more Wheel Of Time connections than we initially thought!
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